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I can't believe my eyes here, what short-sightedness has struck here. People, innocent until proven guilty is a basic premise of justice. Guilt beyond reasonable doubt is another. Given that this happens on a game on the front page -- the highest 'caliber' of game found in public matches apart from professionals joining public matches, I do not consider it my purview to unequivocally label not complying with some arbitrary restriction 'bad' enough play that doing so warrants an abandon on grounds of deliberately not participating.

Can we please think for a moment, and concede situations exist where the inherent value of not exposing your existence to the enemy can be high enough that staying away from creep kills, especially once the XP cap has been reached, that not doing so might be 'good play'? Dota is a complex game. You can't foresee cases where things that would in most situations be considered 'bad' are in fact the correct play. For a somewhat lower skill example, imagine nature's prophet going solo on the top lane against rikimaru and bounty late game, to allow tiny to backdoor the open base on the bottom lane.

Not realizing the existence of io and tiny allows this play, the dire team might make the mistake of committing too much to prophet. Yes, feeding is usually bad, yet not if it allows tiny those 5 seconds he needs to bash down the ancient.

If you're still not convinced, look at the professional match linked to at https: There's also something in this match similar to the pub match: Due to this [A] supports are playing off the map, hiding in trees to protect naga pushing, dominating creeps to backdoor, denying aegises due to lack of inventory space, and other weird and wonderful plays.

I don't know off the top of my head if there exists a person in that game that would fall under the abandonment system, yet it's easy to see the possibility of this occurring in a game 'like it'.

In late-game dota, you have to change your preconceptions about the game if you want to win. As the dynamic of the game changes, people need to get creative. For example roshan and creeps become stronger compared to the heroes after the heroes max out. Are you saying people should get abandons for playing like professionals? Even if the above weren't true, points made by others stand strong as well. The current system doesn't really do a comprehensive job.

I'd argue that's a tall order, and judging whether a person is deliberately ruining the game is best left to humans. If 9 people agree 1 person is ruining the game by for example attack-moving the tier 4s every respawn at 5 minutes into the gamethen they can decide this and report. By using a variation of google's algorithm -- some linear algebra -- it's easy to 'weigh' reports by the reputation people have: The less reports and more commends you have in relative terms, the higher the weight allotted to those respectively.

Under absolutely no circumstance should we have a case where it's likely 10 people agree omniknight or techies or whoever was NOT ruining the game for their team by feeding or inactivity, just playing to the best of his ability, yet he's still credited with an abandon nobody in that game can do anything about.

In fact, it's likely his own team wanted him to do this! Please stop repeating the same false statements over and over. It's simply not unequivocally true that not being near creeps for 6 minutes is in all cases deliberate trolling of your own teammates. You might just decide to stop doing so due to the inherent value. There's also another system not covered in this topic that really effectively discourages ineffective plays where they're ineffective e.

It's called losing games. If you're playing ineffectively, your MMR will eventually decrease until you're playing with people just as ineffective as you are. There's no reason to go filter or punish bad plays beyond this at all. I dislike this system because it's inconsistent and arbitrary, and yields false positives. Sure, it can be gamed, but this system can also trivially be gamed by someone that doesn't want to properly play. And at least I can logically guarantee that there's no valid reason not to have keyboard input every six minutes.

Hey, and as a bonus, using actual input will catch the 'prophet on the cliff'. Please try to understand this. Very late game when you're level 25, XP is worthless. Gold over 10, after 6-slot is of questionable worth to anyone except alchemist as well.

So it's plainly false. See my and other people's examples of high skill games where little or no XP is gained for a long time.

Usually applies to long hour-plus games. Only losing or leaving the game should cost you MMR. If you're playing, even inefficiently, that still means the game needs to judge you based on that normally, e. The minute level 2 land mine techies will end up with a low rating automatically by losing more games than they win at higher ratings, it's no reason to effectively auto-lose them the game.

Dota does not auto-lose people for backdooring, cliffing, 5 spirit breaker bashes in a row, furion cliff farming, 5 global ultimates team, or any number of other cheap strategies with obvious drawbacks, but which can net you game advantage. That's a much more serious matter, since rubick or magnus or tiny can literally take away the incentive to win for one player on the opposing team with a little coordination, courier sniping, and early game dominance, which not at all guarantees a win for their side.

It's pretty good news for your side if you can pull it off though. It's a game, have fun at your level of play. Not all of humanity consists of supergenius twitchy hyper-reactive asian year olds with lightning reflexes, amazing stamina, perfect memory, and a wealth of time available. Being bad doesn't mean you can't play all pick, or random draft, or whatever other mode's your favourite a lot of the time.

So the game shouldn't put people in low priority because of this. We should ask for participation and commitment to the particular game a person queues for and accepts, nothing more. Just match people of similar ability to play, and everyone can have fun. Work on your own game, as it's likely similarly bad unless you're part of the super-elite where unequal ratings are matched. Here's another interesting tidbit as to why this system is bad: And of course, opponents can try to do so as well, by both denying your courier, not losing any hero near the trap spot or cliff, and preventing any nearby jungle camps from losing creeps.

Hard, but certainly possible. As for heroes that actually can't get themselves XP on cliffs, there's not that many. Slardar is a good example though. Also, you can ward the jungle so nothing spawns in the first place I have infinitely more sympathy for people who get abandons because of bad network connections.

There are other edge cases and ways the system can be abused, but changing it to suit a worthless playstyle while making it easier to casually idle is not justified.

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Most people don't want to outright feed even if they've given up, but that's currently the easiest way to avoid abandoning while idling; if it was just as easy without feeding, you'd be sure to see significantly more of that. Meanwhile, dedicated griefers will find a way regardless, and the time and effort required for griefing combined with the existing protections, the lack of payoff and the fact that an abandon won't have any more effect than a loss on most players means that it's never going to be widespread, and the chance of anyone being put in low priority by griefers is minuscule.

The AFK system is shit, get over it. They dislike techies players and the way people play him, and therefore it's totally fine that the techies together with the occasional innocent lategame omni-knight get unjustified abandons handed out to them. As long as they don't play what I personally think is the correct playstyle of this hero, they deserve every single abandon they get! Very sad mentality indeed, and a great way to solve absolutely nothing.

And that system is far more important, as you can't easily game it. People will report those who effectively stop caring about playing the game, and will very likely do so when someone who cares about it instructs them to upon witnessing this.

No user input or hero commands for at least [longest death timer possible] plus a minute or so. Round it up for a nice 4 minutes. Actually this calculation exposes another flaw of the automatic system: A dieback into a necrophos ultimate after dying to one at level 25 is enough to flag you under the current system. At the very least, remove the system for parties of 5. It's implied they're working together by partying, so there's no reason to go automatic policing on vague criteria.

Same with the case where the team agrees on the behaviour. Similarly a diffrent set of standards should apply to private chat compared to public chat. Your 'party' chat is private, only visible to those agreeing to party with you, there is thus no need to police it. The game 'all' chat is public, visible to anyone playing the game. In compliance with public standards certain obscene speech is censored there through the community report system. I do have some ideas to make the manual system more effective.

Allow players to gain karma through good behaviour and lose it through bad behaviour. The more you have, the bigger the value of your report. A few high karma player reports are enough to send a low karma player into low priority while vice versa more is required. Ratings and numbers are invisible to players. Sort of a pagerank type system.

Obviously limits should be in place: Even when it's inefficient. What's next, we're going to low-priority people for auto-attacking creeps? For not switching their power treads to intelligence to cast Q on Sven? The report system is not an extension of the MMR system. Let play quality be handled by the MMR system. The techies, the omniknight, the heroes in my hypothetical examples that are stuck on cliffs for 6 minutes, they're all playing the game in some sense.

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